selkie: (pride -- er)
Add MemoryShare This Entry
posted by [personal profile] selkie at 03:59pm on 01/11/2004
...Um, does anyone have any sources/anecdotes/crazy theologic flights of fancy regarding ketuvot for same-sex marriages? I mean, ideas of shared responsibility and a cohesive joint future, and all that. Would we just do two of them?

Everyone else gets one...

I was just daydreaming, thinking.

The last wedding-type simcha I went to was the most egalitarian I'd ever seen, so. Tradition can be elegantly enhanced without splintering all over the place. My friends proved it. And am I so odd in the head, for wanting a nice piece of paper saying I will, no matter what, see my wife taken care of?
There are 19 comments on this entry. (Reply.)
 
posted by [identity profile] mortifyd.livejournal.com at 01:18pm on 01/11/2004
I'm almost certain I've seen them before... but if not, then you just need one made with the pronouns adjusted, not exactly difficult. I know artsy people who would go for that sort of project... My calligraphy is all right, it's the decorative bits I'm a little weak on.
 
posted by [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com at 01:40pm on 01/11/2004
Awww, Mortelekh, we're honoured for the help. *volunteers you, trades calligraphy for a decent helping of the tisch* C'mon Mort! We've got gribenes! Can't have pudge without gribenes.
 
posted by [identity profile] mortifyd.livejournal.com at 01:48pm on 01/11/2004
So nu, when does it need to be finished by?
 
posted by [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com at 02:01pm on 01/11/2004
Nisan 5765.
*grins*
 
posted by [identity profile] mortifyd.livejournal.com at 02:15pm on 01/11/2004
You are a pain in my tuchas. *grin*

Do you have a colour scheme?
 
posted by [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com at 03:11pm on 01/11/2004
Blues. :) She likes blue. I like blue. Where's to go wrong?
 
posted by [identity profile] mortifyd.livejournal.com at 03:24pm on 01/11/2004
Just randomly somewhere in Nisan? Once you settle on a text let me know and we can talk designs and details.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 02:16pm on 01/11/2004
Here are some of my thoughts on same-sex Jewish wedding ceremonies, along with a version of sheva berachot. I like the idea of replacing birkat erusin with shehekheyanu. Also see Rachel Adler's Engendering Judaism for some interesting ideas.

You don't really want a ketubah, at least not in the traditional sense, since it's all about a man's obligations to his wife. What you want is some sort of 2-way declaration of commitment. (You can call it a ketubah if you really want to.) Here is one by Rabbi Simcha Roth of Herzelia. You'll probably want to change a few things if you use it. (It's in Aramaic; let me know if you want me to write up a translation.)

[אור ליום פלוני] בשבת, כך וכך ימים בחודש [פלוני], שנת [כמה וכמה] למנין שאנו מונם וכו.

אומרות אנו [פלונית בת אלמונית] מצד אחד, ו[אלמונית בת פלוני] מצד שני,לקבל עם ועדה בהצהרה קדושה: להוי ידוע בזה שנקשרו נפשותינו זו בזו בקשרי אהבה ומסירות הדדית, ובכבנותינו בסייתא דשמיא להיות נאמנות זו לזו באופן בלעדי כל ימינו עלי אדמות. נהיה זו לזו רעים אהובים ונוקיר ונכבד ונפרנס ונסעד כל אחת את הזולת ביושר ובאמונה. לכן אנו מקיימות בזה משק משותף. כיס אחד יהיה לשתינו ובדירה אחת נדור, ובשייעתא דשמיא במועונינו ישרו אהבה ואחוה, שלום ורעות, ובו נטפח יחד את מורשת היהדות, אהבת ישראל, וכבוד הבריות. כמו כן, אנו מבטיחות זו לזו, באופן הדדי הבטחה קדושה ובלתי חוזרת, שנעזור זו לזו ונתמוך זו בזו לשמור מכל משמר כל אחת על הזולת שלא נכשל חס ושלום בכל עבירה שיש עמה כרת. אנו מכריזות ומבטיחות בהבטחה חגגית את כל מה שכתוב ומפורש לעיל.

וחתמינו בשתר זה בזמן הנזכר לעיל, והכל ברור ותקף וקיים.
[חתימות]

Mazal tov (which, as you know, really means "good luck").
 
posted by [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com at 02:20pm on 01/11/2004
Thank you! A translation would be appreciated, as Aramaic is not one I ever picked up, aside from what Sim Shalom has in it. :)

Thank you again!
 
posted by [identity profile] muchabstracted.livejournal.com at 03:06pm on 01/11/2004
Will it surprise anyone to hear that my first reaction was, "Oh, talk to [profile] navelofwine!"
 
posted by [identity profile] debka-notion.livejournal.com at 04:47pm on 01/11/2004
I'm with you there.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 02:17pm on 01/11/2004
Oof -- already noticed 2 spelling errors. Well, hopefully it gets the idea across.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 07:35am on 02/11/2004
It's a bit paraphrastic at points. I tried to translate it into real English, although I'm not sure I succeeded in every case. Personally, I like the legalistic tone and the emphasis on property, as I think it makes it more like a traditional ketubah. You may not, and you can certainly edit it, though I can't promise to translate any changes into correct Aramaic. You should certainly edit the English if you think you can make it sound better. (I suspect that you're better at this sort of thing than I am.)

Here it is:

[Day of the week], xth day of Nissan, of the year 5765:

We, [name] and [name] hereby commit to the following sacred pledge:
Let it be known that our souls have been bound to one another in love and mutual commitment, and that we intend, with the help of heaven, to be faithful to one another exclusively all the days of our lives. We will be loving companions, and each of us will cherish, honor, and support the other in an upright and faithful manner. On this account, we hereby establish a joint household. Our property will be shared, and we will reside in the same home. With the help of heaven, our household will be one of love and harmony, peace and companionship, in which we, together, will foster the Jewish tradition, love of Israel, and respect for all God’s creations. Likewise, we pledge to one another exclusively, in a sacred and nonretractable pledge, that we will aid one another and rely on one another to avoid transgressing, God forbid, any law that carries the penalty of excision.* We joyfully affirm all the above.

Signatures:

*Rabbi Roth had his own reasons for including this line. I’d leave it out if I were you.
 
posted by [identity profile] darthrami.livejournal.com at 04:49pm on 02/11/2004
Thank you for all of this. We're not quite sure what we'll use yet, but it's great to have this. Thank you.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 03:47pm on 02/11/2004
My husband reminds me that the original purpose of the ketubah was to offer protections that women might not otherwise have in a patriarchal society. While the protections offered by the ketubah are no longer necessary for women in our society (and, in fact, often do more harm than good), we are still at a stage at which same-sex partners do not have the same rights and protections as married heterosexuals. Making the necessary legal arrangements to compensate for this may be more in the spirit of the ketubah than signing a "covenant of love."

Here are some suggestions along those lines, as well as ideas for a ceremony including a somewhat more innovative version of sheva berachot.

This article and this article are also worth reading. Unfortunately, none of them provide alternative ketubah texts. I will let you know if I see anything interesting.
 
posted by [identity profile] strange-selkie.livejournal.com at 04:46pm on 02/11/2004
Thank you. You don't have to go to all this trouble, and we massively appreciate you for it. I know the nicest, thinkiest modern Jews...

...it puts my mind at such ease, to have the familiar, reassuring textual stuff.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 07:14am on 03/11/2004
It's no trouble, actually. I've been going through this stuff for a while, with no practical application.
 
posted by [identity profile] lonespark.livejournal.com at 07:25pm on 02/11/2004
So wonderful to hear about your beautiful love, I am crying here. Can anybody point me to some general info on Jewish wedding tradition type stuff? I am new to this whole having non-atheist friends thing. It is great, but I may have to ask many stupid Gentile questions.
 
posted by [identity profile] navelofwine.livejournal.com at 07:16am on 03/11/2004
This is more or less accurate, although it doesn't include anything on non-Orthodox practices.

February

SunMonTueWedThuFriSat
            1
 
2
 
3
 
4
 
5 6
 
7
 
8
 
9
 
10
 
11
 
12
 
13
 
14
 
15
 
16
 
17
 
18
 
19
 
20
 
21
 
22
 
23
 
24
 
25
 
26
 
27
 
28